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@Shnyx: whenever adding covers that aren't on VocaDB, please add a mention of the original, either in external links or song description. In this case it's easy because the original is linked on YouTube. I will correct this for you this time.
Generally when adding an album song, if the artist and the vocalist are the same then you should use the existing song entry (because there's a high probability that they are the same). So unless there's a confirmation, I would merge the other entry to this one.
Edit: I merged the song.
http://vocadb.net/S/157438?albumId=22860 is it the same song ?
@jadii if this is your entry, you can request verification here: http://vocadb.net/User/RequestVerification
@goldenchild - Vocafan has already been notified on the edits.
@Vocafan : why didn't you add all the informations available ?
I think we should have a clear policy on not allowing instrumental non-album original (not derived) works.
As I said on the first comment of mine in this thread, the number of these songs, I believe, is really big. It's really hard to measure if some song like this should be added; the variables behind "decision" are subject to change, and the ratio of vocaloid songs vs instrumental is the most questionable way of these to measure, in my opinion. Significant amount of those producers who have started using vocaloid from the start with music producing will publish songs later (or during) that are unrelated to vocaloid. There is also significant amount of those who picked up using vocaloid at some point after publishing some other songs first. It's hard to predict the way the ratio changes with time. Song quality can change over time as well.
Having a "complete" artist discography is not always ideal, especially when it can mean adding non-vocaloid-related songs/albums as well. Currently I think it's enough in most cases when there are links to artist's websites or some other listing of instrumental works.
Having good rules on what should be added will be beneficial for the site, especially in the long term. In this case, the line is clear (if we choose to forbid these entries), compared to some other policies (related to song/album quality). Because it's hard to reason why some instrumental songs should/shouldn't be added, I think allowing those would create lots of work, not just the editors part, but for people in charge of moderating/auditing.
To be clear, the tagline of VocaDB is not changing: voice synthesizers are and will remain the focus (though I'd like to incorporate UTAU and CeVIO more, but that's another story).
I see 3 options:
1) Keep the old policy of allowing instrumentals by Vocaloid Ps, but make it more clear that they should only be added with a good reason, and by artists with multiple Vocaloid songs (contrasted with Vocaloid/UTAU songs where it's ok to add all songs by the artist, unless the artist happens to have a very large number of low quality covers).
2) Work on separating the "out of scope" content from the main content (voice synthesizer songs), eventually change the policy to allow any instrumentals by Vocaloid artists.
3) Forbid adding any instrumentals that aren't album songs or originals of Vocaloid covers.
Personally I think that many instrumental songs (covers or originals) are more valuable than just taking a Vocaloid song and synthesizing it with another voicebank, which can be done with zero effort.
Even from vocaloid producers, if you start to add original instrumental albums, there are already some here but i was thinking about 光収容,
there are some touhou album,
some instrumental only albums.
some anime covers
with or without kagamine rin, i really like his music
and marasy as well
this mean at least one hundred instrumental songs that can be added as vocaloid instrumental covers.
It's getting complicated :/
Instrumental songs (by vocaloid producers) can stay here, imo, but this must be a very few part of the songs in the database.
i really don't know how to keep these entries and, in the same time, to have a database that will be pleasant to use.
having new bookmarks with played it and dance it ?
this clearly mean, vocaloid songs on one side and derivative works on the other side.
this clearly mean, vocaloid songs on one side and derivative works on the other side.
Yes, it's all on NicoNicoDouga. One website, separate sections. That is what I'd personally like to see here as well. Having the related works on VocaDB (except for utaite, which is already on another website), but clearly separate from the Vocaloid/voice synthesizer works. We have very good features for categorizing and searching information, better than NicoNicoDouga I'd say. There's already a voicebank filter for the song rankings as well. I'm not sure what your suggestion is...
Currently there's 102 standalone (non-album) instrumental songs on VocaDB. 102 out of 114298, that's not even 1%. Hardly an issue for anyone. That's why there has been no need to separate those into a another section, but that would certainly be an alternative. For a custom website such as VocaDB, issues can usually be resolved as they appear, there's no need to take care of everything until it becomes a problem (it might never do).
That's why I was asking: do you want to get rid of the instrumentals completely, or do you think we could work on the UI to more clearly separate those "off-topic" songs from the main content?
Let's go back to basics :
"VocaDB is a free to use database for discography information about Vocaloid and related voice synthesizers such as UTAU"
"VocaDB is a Vocaloid Database with translated artists, albums, music videos and more. Our goal is to be the most accurate and complete source of Vocaloid discography and artists. "
so focus on vocaloid songs (and utau, cevio, etc...)
what do we have here :
"New Videos" AND "Inspired Works Ranking"
this is vocadb.net, there is already http://utaitedb.net/ for the "Sang_it" works
do you want to create two more websites ? odoritedb.net for the "Danced_it" works and Ensoushitedb.net for the "Played_it" works ?
I don't think so...
adding artist or songs without vocaloid, just to have all the informations for an album entry is much appreciated :
this one for example :
with vocaloid songs and self cover with human singers.
Like I said, I wanted to believe that editors are able to make the right choice instead of having to resort to rigid rules, but according to most people here it's gone too far. Fine, from now on it's forbidden to add standalone instrumentals on VocaDB. Exceptions can be made for remarkable songs, or those with Vocaloid-related PVs. I just wish there was another place for those songs, like there's UtaiteDB for utaite songs.
I would have to agree with goldenchild here in the sense that this is a vocal synth database and there is already more than what the lot of people here that are active need to keep track of within vocaloid and other synths, and more, that I feel like adding instrumentals is a whole bunch of extra stuff to keep track of that seems unnecessary. And if we can't even decide on criteria's because its subjective then this won't get any better. Instead, mods are going to spend their time telling people that these are not up to standard. Its ok to be branch out sometimes but I think this has gotten way above just branching out "because" and become just a usual thing instead. And to be honest, the whole voca in vocadb is for vocals. So instrumentals don't have those, which makes it kind of out of place even though these producers are vocaloid related. If we are going to do instrumentals because its a vocaloid producers then people will think oh well we can add more. So if a producer I know makes vocaloid songs and I add him but hes also a Touhou producer, then why should I add Touhou songs here just because he made it? You see were I am getting at? Where is the line on all of this? You need to put it somewhere. And I use the above example because I actually know a VOCALOID producer who does a lot of Touhou and rhythm game songs etc.
@rm_ : i didn't post here because i had discussions BEFORE the creation of this topic. and these songs, regardless of their quality, are not vocaloid songs.
@goldenchild you didn't post your opinion in this discussion, but just went and deleted both of the http://vocadb.net/S/153175 and http://vocadb.net/S/153174 ??? That's not very nice, I thought the consensus was that adding new ones is discouraged, but they are not forbidden either. And what is there to gain by going around and deleting the already added ones? Especially with these which are very well-known, popular and highly rated on the original platform.
I think it's ok to say we discourage adding "standalone" instrumental songs (songs that aren't on any albums, no Vocaloid covers) unless they're remarkable in some way, but maybe not go outright forbidding it at least yet.
Filtering notifications based on popularity is indeed quite a lot of work, it's probably not worth implementing. Filtering based on clear rules like song type is a bit easier, if you think it's really useful.
Instrumentals are needed to form a proper chain of "Original -> Arrange -> Covers based on the arrange" child-parent relations, the recent case of http://vocadb.net/S/152531 comes to mind again. And indeed for me the primary motivation to add instrumentals would be if I want to add some Vocaloid covers which are based on them. Just adding instrumentals on their own does indeed seem a bit weird.
As I understand the current discussion is sparked from http://vocadb.net/S/153175 and http://vocadb.net/S/153174
It appears there are no vocaloid covers which use those at present, but incidentally a lot of Utaite covers do.
Maybe in the future there will be Vocaloid covers as well. In any case I don't think they warrant deletion or rules need to be changed to limit that, just some reminder to editors to more carefully consider their reasoning when they add instrumentals, i.e. since those "generally" don't belong to the site, but if you are adding them with a purpose (e.g. as mentioned above, to link Vocaloid covers based on them) it can be OK.
There are no easy ways to figure out what the "quality standard" should be though. Personally I've noticed that it can't be always based on numbers like views (unless waiting for long to see how the numbers grow - maybe?). Lately I've been noticing this "low-quality-spam" increasing. I think there needs to be something done, because I don't see it stopping any time soon. I see the ways to improve this are related to notification system.
I can imagine this upgrade/re-design(?) of notification system would be a lot of work. If it's not possible to do, there might be a way to reduce the amount of notifs caused by "spam" with some additional rules/smaller features: Usually when the view statistics are not met the song only gets added when submitter feels that the song is worth adding. Usually people also rate the song if they have enjoyed it. Song with no ratings and low statistics on different media sources would usually be "questionable in quality". There still would be exceptions though, if using this rule: I can imagine cases when editor feels that the song should be added from the quality point of view, but wouldn't want to rate it. If there are additional people who agree the song should be added, it makes it simpler decision to have that song indexed - even though the "numbers lie". If these clear standards had to be set, there would be need for additional thinking about different media service view-stats and the correlation and relationship of those (youtube / nnd / soundcloud / etc ).
If the quality-standard policy won't be based on directly measureable stats, some kind of disapproval poll/discussion per entry would be useful. When the entry is questionable in quality it's more difficult to remove the song than add it.
I don't have conclusive opinion on the quality standard issue at the moment. However I think if the quality standard is going to stay how it is, I think there needs to be a way to filter unwanted content at the notification level.
My opinion on the policy of instrumental songs is that they should not be allowed. I have no exact data, but I believe that a big amount of vocaloid artists have some number of instrumental songs. I'm not aware of the average ratio of the vocaloid-related / instrumental songs by the artists who have made both, though. I'm not sure, but I think the most efficient way to investigate the numbers would be checking random artist entries. Sample size would need to be at least 50 or 100 to have some kind of rough estimation. I think allowing(*) these instrumental songs would create large amount of potentially unwanted songs entries. I'm estimating the numbers being around 10 000. I think having the proper statistics would be good for this topic. Also, these instrumental non-album original songs can't be searched and tracked on-site currently I think - possible programmatically though.
*(pushing them out of the "grey" area)
[ Following text might be more suitable to have in another thread, but I feel it is closely related to this topic ]
I got the idea that the main cause of disapproval of having instrumental songs here is the outcome of unwanted notifications. Being able to customize the notifications in some way would be really helpful (song type / artist (for tag subscription)). Being able to delete the accidental (usually caused by unnecessary/incorrect artist credit) notifications would reduce the amount of unwanted notifications too.
Another source of unwanted notifications is the low-quality song "spam". I think there should be some kind of redefinition of quality standards we use here. Being based on judgement (which varies a lot between users) and allowing to index the every video that can be found (if they have some kind of relationship with voice synth - even if very distant) won't really work.
Recently I've seen some confusion and disagreement regarding acceptance of instrumental songs by Vocaloid artists on VocaDB.
To clarify, the current policy allows any instrumental songs by Vocaloid artists, but as mentioned on the FAQ page, only instrumentals by artists with multiple Vocaloid songs should be added. Instrumentals on Vocaloid albums are of course acceptable as well. The idea is that editors can use their best judgement. If the artist has many Vocaloid songs and just a few instrumentals, having those instrumentals on VocaDB could be beneficial to get a complete overview of the songs the artist has produced. On the other hand, for artists that have multiple instrumental songs and only a few Vocaloid songs it doesn't make sense to have all those instrumentals here on VocaDB. I believe that on average editors are intelligent enough to make a sensible choice, and for 7 years this hasn't been a huge issue, so I'm not sure why it's being talked about now.
Some of you may remember that originally we allowed utaite songs on VocaDB too because of the same reasons, but when UtaiteDB was started that became redundant. VocaDB and UtaiteDB are able to interact, so having the songs on one site is enough. There is no such website for instrumental songs by Vocaloid artists, so having those (hopefully few) instrumentals on VocaDB was acceptable. Additionally, based on my experience there's more utaite covers of Vocaloid songs than instrumental covers - usually there's only one or two instrumental versions of songs. VocaDB has pretty good indexing and searching capabilities, so having those few instrumentals shouldn't complicate finding the relevant information.
Just like 99% of the other policies here on VocaDB, this policy of handling instrumental versions is up for discussion. No editor (including myself) can just ignore the rules as they please without a good reason, but if you think that the current policy isn't good enough, you're welcome to offer constructive suggestions. There should always be a reason for a policy change - a problem you're trying to solve or a clear improvement.
So, I'm asking: do you think that we should limit the instrumentals here on VocaDB, and why? Is this something that could be fixed by just organizing the information and search autocomplete boxes better? Comments? Questions?
@goldenchild now it works
@Shnyx : added the embedded playback unavailable tag, there is nothing else to do since it's uploader wish :/
Piapro link works fine here.
About the entry report, video works fine for me.
I can't edit this song so I'll post the link to the video in the comment:
Symphonic metal is usually not a genre of its own, instead it's combined with other genres. IMO this song qualifies as power and gothic metal. I think it's pointless to debate genres though unless it's clearly wrong.
@ShinyTheCat: a couple of things here. Genre names that are not proper nouns are to be lowercase. It should be "black metal". Another thing, the parent genre should be something metal, because it's obviously a metal genre. Wikipedia calls it extreme metal, so the previous parent extreme metal should be correct.
Regarding the entry report(s): the PV works fine for me. The PV for 24時間の兵士 (157398) and グラサン・エンジェル (157396) also work. It just doesn't seem to work when using the Vocaloid Database player, but they work fine on Nicovideo.
teaeye say track7 is MIKU. He change voice manipulat Albam ver / Video ver.
im pretty sure track 7 uses gumi. i know it says miku in the video but it clearly sounds like gumi, also the original version of the song used miku and it sounds different. either way, its a great album 5/5
The artist has deleted their twitter
crying right now
they said they wanted to become something else and they would rise again
@Hez_kun : For future reference, tag the provider of USTs/VSQs/etc. with 'vocal data provider'. This ensures that the person who made the cover and used the VSQ/UST is the only one credited for the cover. Because you made the PV as well, you can tag yourself as the 'animator'.
@KyuTurtle oh ok! Sorry about that!
@Brood_P the "arranged instrumental" tag is only for when a producer specifically recreates the original instrumental (for example: http://vocadb.net/S/122962). just the remix songtype is ok!
Those are called "Hetaloid" by the fan base http://hetalia.answers.wikia.com/wiki/What_is_hetaloid
If you intend to add more than a couple of songs with one, then I'd say make an artist entry.
See http://vocadb.net/Ar/57475 for a similar case discussion.
If not adding an artist, then definitely at least add them as a custom artist in the song.
@szg28, well, you could add the singer as a "custom artist" and write few words in the description.
A jinriki-vocaloid based on the voice samples of a character in "Axis Power Hetalia". I'm not sure if this should be submitted here.
Who is the vocalist ?
@Pxndragon - I changed the parent entry of both of these covers (S/157025 & S/157024).
Adding PowerlessP's entry to these songs is redundant. I also removed the remix - tag, since it doesn't apply here.
Maybe I'm just looking too much into it. I was wondering if that "Season 2 episode 1" means something other than being part of the title. Is it maybe a series of songs? I can see goldenchild removed that part. Should it be part of the title?
@riipah - I believe it says something like "Idol (warau/laugh) IA season 2 episode 1 original song "
Edit: It seems the artist uses "season" to categorize the common theme between their songs. Last "season" of original songs by them were "乙女廃人" - themed. The current theme seems to be "アイドル" / "Idol"
Yes, but what does it mean?
Could someone explain the song title?
@riipah Oops yea I did...
@Vocafan: did you add the wrong artist for these? It seems to be Vagenda, not Vanguard Sound.
@riipah Yes I did there might be another Utauloid that goes by the same name
I'm not sure I understand the question. You updated the picture...
Is this the same utauloid as presented in the picture?
What had happened to the the original version of this song?
@riipah I would probably have to dig through sites like vocaloid empire, although, let me ask people who were involved with SeeU directly to see if I can get a confirmation on this whole thing.